1 00:00:01,890 --> 00:00:04,650 Hello, anybody that is watching. 2 00:00:04,890 --> 00:00:05,860 Hi. 3 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,070 Early on with Natalia, 4 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:34,480 she was doing as many things as possible 5 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,900 to cause hurt or harm 6 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:38,960 or mental distress to the entire family. 7 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,380 I've got my adopted daughter 8 00:00:43,580 --> 00:00:46,340 trying to poison and kill my wife. 9 00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:50,370 We have had her standing over my bed with a knife. 10 00:00:51,790 --> 00:00:54,650 She's clearly dangerous. 11 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:56,900 At this point, what do we do? 12 00:00:57,100 --> 00:00:59,060 We... we take her to the stress center. 13 00:01:07,370 --> 00:01:10,070 She's seen by a psychiatric doctor. 14 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:12,070 And so, at this point in time, 15 00:01:12,270 --> 00:01:13,170 we had already begun asking 16 00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:15,070 mental health professionals for help, 17 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:16,270 trying to find guidance, 18 00:01:16,470 --> 00:01:18,790 trying to figure out the right medication. 19 00:01:18,990 --> 00:01:21,370 And all we're told at every turn is, 20 00:01:22,790 --> 00:01:24,000 "Nothing you can do about this. 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,520 She is this. 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,170 This doesn't go away. This doesn't change. 23 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:33,960 And she can't stay at the stress center. 24 00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:36,270 She's... she's yours. 25 00:01:36,470 --> 00:01:37,340 Take her home." 26 00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:44,060 But they did say, 27 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:45,620 "You can't let Natalia have 28 00:01:45,820 --> 00:01:47,620 free roam of the house anymore. 29 00:01:47,820 --> 00:01:49,580 You need to put a latch on the outside of her door. 30 00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:53,000 And anytime she needs food, 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,900 bath, bathroom, whatever is needed, 32 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:59,070 you need to escort her through the house. 33 00:01:59,270 --> 00:02:01,960 You cannot let her freely roam your home anymore." 34 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:05,170 At this point, 35 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:07,580 we haven't done anything as a family for a long time. 36 00:02:08,890 --> 00:02:10,690 We can't go eat dinner together. 37 00:02:10,890 --> 00:02:12,410 We can't go to the grocery store together. 38 00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:15,550 We are always on guard for things. 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,170 We don't do anything. 40 00:02:18,510 --> 00:02:21,690 So, it's my son's birthday. 41 00:02:21,890 --> 00:02:24,380 Ethan, my youngest son, loved cows. 42 00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:25,520 So for his birthday, 43 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,210 we find a place in Indianapolis 44 00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:29,650 that lets you milk your own cow. 45 00:02:31,620 --> 00:02:33,650 And it's called Traders Point Creamery. 46 00:02:34,510 --> 00:02:37,270 We get inside and they say, 47 00:02:37,470 --> 00:02:39,480 "We have some release forms for you to sign." 48 00:02:40,510 --> 00:02:43,030 Out there where the cows are is an electric fence. 49 00:02:43,510 --> 00:02:44,900 And you have to say, 50 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:46,170 you know there's an electric fence there, 51 00:02:46,370 --> 00:02:48,380 and if you touch it and you get harmed, 52 00:02:48,580 --> 00:02:50,170 that you're not going to hold us liable. 53 00:02:51,510 --> 00:02:53,270 When they say that to us, 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,170 Natalia's eyes lit up like a Christmas tree. 55 00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:00,580 "Really? 56 00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:02,690 There's a scary fence out there 57 00:03:02,890 --> 00:03:04,860 and, uh, I have to sign this?" 58 00:03:07,270 --> 00:03:08,550 Happily signs away. 59 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:13,520 It's another quarter mile from that building 60 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,620 to where the fence starts. 61 00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:15,960 Everything's fine. 62 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:21,790 The moment we get within ten feet of the fence, 63 00:03:23,580 --> 00:03:25,680 Natalia suddenly can't walk again. 64 00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:31,960 Before we went on a walk on the trail, 65 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,060 like, uh, my mom and Natalia sort of stayed back. 66 00:03:37,620 --> 00:03:39,070 So Kristine decides 67 00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:41,580 you're not going to ruin Ethan's birthday. 68 00:03:43,580 --> 00:03:45,690 Michael, you take the boys. 69 00:03:45,890 --> 00:03:47,580 You go on ahead. 70 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:49,580 I will stay back here and I'll handle this. 71 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:54,690 Myself, my three sons, we keep going. 72 00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:55,960 We keep going. We keep going. 73 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,790 We get about 40, 50 yards down and I start hearing screaming. 74 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:02,960 I turn and look. 75 00:04:03,370 --> 00:04:05,210 Natalia and Kristine 76 00:04:05,410 --> 00:04:06,620 are in a physical altercation. 77 00:04:07,890 --> 00:04:10,270 It looks like Natalia's trying to pull Kristine. 78 00:04:11,510 --> 00:04:12,520 Now you might think, 79 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,960 "Hey, she's a little person. How strong can she be?" 80 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000 She uses her arms a lot. 81 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:20,520 Push herself up on things. 82 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,790 She goes up the stairs using her arms. 83 00:04:22,990 --> 00:04:25,860 She's got guns that Schwarzenegger would be impressed with. 84 00:04:26,510 --> 00:04:27,790 She's very strong. 85 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,000 My wife is frail. 86 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,170 She's got a degenerative disease called lupus. 87 00:04:32,370 --> 00:04:33,900 She's weak. 88 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:38,550 I start to go back. Kristine says, "No, go." 89 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:41,070 Okay. 90 00:04:41,270 --> 00:04:44,170 She wants my son to have his birthday. We go. 91 00:04:44,370 --> 00:04:46,030 And me and the boys double time it. 92 00:04:48,790 --> 00:04:50,340 We get a little bit farther down... 93 00:04:52,370 --> 00:04:53,550 and we hear the sirens. 94 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,440 The second I heard the sirens, 95 00:04:58,510 --> 00:05:00,240 I thought Kristine was dead. 96 00:05:01,370 --> 00:05:02,340 I think she's dead. 97 00:05:04,890 --> 00:05:06,410 And the police have arrived, 98 00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:08,960 um, ambulances have arrived. 99 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,650 And we can see Kristine is there. 100 00:05:12,410 --> 00:05:14,580 Kristine's very angry, very upset. 101 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,790 Natalia's over with the EMTs, 102 00:05:18,410 --> 00:05:19,690 and Natalia had been trying 103 00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:21,550 to pull Kristine into the electric fence. 104 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:25,960 She'd been screaming out loud. 105 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:30,380 How am I with language in this interview? 106 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:32,580 Am I allowed to use words? 107 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:34,410 "You bitch, I'm going to kill you. 108 00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:35,690 I'm going to kill you, you bitch. 109 00:05:35,890 --> 00:05:36,750 You're going to die." 110 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:39,900 Kristine's screaming at them, 111 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:41,960 "She needs to be arrested. She tried to kill me. 112 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,170 She needs to be arrested. She tried to kill me." 113 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,170 We wanted charges. 114 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:48,270 We wanted her arrested. 115 00:05:48,470 --> 00:05:50,520 She, admittedly, 116 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,410 to their face when they came to the 911 call said, 117 00:05:54,610 --> 00:05:56,750 "I'm trying to kill her." 118 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:01,380 They made the distinction that their visual told them, 119 00:06:01,580 --> 00:06:04,170 "Hey, that's a little girl. 120 00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:06,520 She's not really trying to kill anybody. She's sick. 121 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,270 We're going to take her to the hospital instead." 122 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,790 But they stated we're not going to press charges. 123 00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:14,960 She's going to get a mental health evaluation. 124 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,960 I think she was already in the ambulance 125 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:20,480 by the time I had come back. 126 00:06:21,310 --> 00:06:22,520 I was like, "Oh, well, I guess, 127 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,410 Natalia's mental health is clearly off. 128 00:06:24,610 --> 00:06:26,750 I guess it's good that she goes to the hospital." 129 00:06:34,170 --> 00:06:35,620 I felt a sense of relief, 130 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:38,440 like, uh, it can be a little safer. 131 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,070 Kristine and I said, 132 00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:45,620 "She has to go to a hospital long-term and get help." 133 00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:47,520 We didn't know how long. 134 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,380 She can't come home until she's better. 135 00:06:51,580 --> 00:06:53,480 When Natalia was in the state mental hospital, 136 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,900 she was under 24/7 observation and care 137 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:59,480 of 90 doctors, nurses, 138 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,620 orderlies, therapists, et cetera. 139 00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:05,900 While she's there, she admits openly and freely that, 140 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:07,960 "Yeah, I'm trying to kill her. 141 00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:09,790 And by the way, 142 00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:12,960 I'm going to tell you, doctors, and I'm going to write this in my journal. 143 00:07:13,580 --> 00:07:15,060 I'm going to kill the boys, too. 144 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:20,000 And here's specifically what I'm going to do to them. 145 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,680 I am going to stab them with a knife while they sleep. 146 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:27,000 I'm going to drag their bodies out of the house, 147 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,170 and I'm going to put them underneath the deck out back." 148 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,620 Natalia drew this picture immediately after being 149 00:07:35,820 --> 00:07:37,790 admitted to Larue Carter State Hospital. 150 00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:41,790 It says, "bye," as in goodbye. 151 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,650 After a couple weeks, 152 00:09:18,620 --> 00:09:19,960 we get a phone call from them. 153 00:09:20,620 --> 00:09:21,680 "You got to come get her." 154 00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:23,550 Why? 155 00:09:25,620 --> 00:09:27,340 Well, they tried to be really delicate with it. 156 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,680 "Natalia was propositioning the men." 157 00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:33,720 What are you talking about? 158 00:09:41,410 --> 00:09:43,270 Natalia was at Larue Carter. 159 00:09:43,470 --> 00:09:46,860 We had been trying to get her to inpatient treatment. 160 00:09:47,060 --> 00:09:49,960 We had been begging people to help us. 161 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,000 We had been told by everybody, 162 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,580 "You need help desperately. 163 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:54,900 Your family's in danger. 164 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:56,860 She needs inpatient treatment." 165 00:09:57,580 --> 00:09:58,790 "Great. 166 00:09:58,990 --> 00:10:00,000 We are at an inpatient facility. 167 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,900 That's fantastic. 168 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:02,240 Can you help us?" "No." 169 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,240 They said, "Mr. Barnett, 170 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:09,550 the state mental hospital, the adult wing, 171 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,930 most of the men there, 172 00:10:13,270 --> 00:10:15,550 they're not particularly good with children. 173 00:10:17,270 --> 00:10:19,750 And they're not particularly good with girls. 174 00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:08,070 So, after a month, 175 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:10,900 they need her out of there because 176 00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:14,130 bad things are about to happen with all the men in the unit. 177 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,100 "Take her home." 178 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:19,170 "She's going to kill us." "Can't help you." 179 00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:23,000 The danger we've been in 180 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:24,900 isn't going anywhere anytime soon, 181 00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:26,370 and it can't be controlled. 182 00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:35,210 I'm Beth Karas. 183 00:11:35,410 --> 00:11:36,900 I'm an attorney in New York. 184 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:38,480 I'm a former prosecutor. 185 00:11:40,580 --> 00:11:43,860 What hooked me in this case was just the strange story. 186 00:11:47,060 --> 00:11:48,860 She's had various diagnoses, 187 00:11:49,060 --> 00:11:50,650 the last one being sociopath. 188 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:54,690 But in my opinion, 189 00:11:54,890 --> 00:11:58,030 there are questions, a lot of questions with this case. 190 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,380 The fundamental rule in all investigations 191 00:12:01,580 --> 00:12:05,370 is that you follow the facts wherever they may lead you. 192 00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:11,170 There are some things that just don't sit right with me. 193 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,060 If she's actually threatening to kill them, 194 00:12:15,790 --> 00:12:17,370 you got to go to the police. 195 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,340 Kristine and Michael don't call the police. 196 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,210 But the neighbor, who is very concerned, 197 00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:32,100 does call the Department of Child Services, 198 00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:36,690 who bring in the police in March of 2012. 199 00:12:36,890 --> 00:12:40,370 They get a report of child neglect of Natalia. 200 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,270 March comes. 201 00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:45,580 Kristine and Natalia are having the 202 00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:46,930 "who are you?" fight. 203 00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:50,900 Kristine wants Natalia to write down 204 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:52,270 people she's lived with, 205 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:53,860 places she's been. 206 00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:55,650 Tell us about people you've known. 207 00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:00,860 And this night, Kristine decides 208 00:13:01,310 --> 00:13:02,270 that the most effective way 209 00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:04,760 to make you tell me who you really are 210 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,130 is you no longer have a bedroom or a bed. 211 00:13:08,270 --> 00:13:09,860 You sleep outside. 212 00:13:11,270 --> 00:13:12,240 Grab your blanket. 213 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,370 You're sleeping on the back deck. 214 00:13:16,890 --> 00:13:18,000 Natalia's out there crying 215 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,070 finally, like, three hours into this. 216 00:13:21,270 --> 00:13:23,960 Well, I tell Kristine, "I can't do this." 217 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,030 I get up, I let Natalia in, I get her back to her room. 218 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,550 One of the neighbors called CPS. 219 00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:32,380 So CPS shows up on the door, 220 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:33,790 Child Protective Services, 221 00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:36,030 with a detective from the local police department. 222 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,100 They come in, they've gotten this call, 223 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:41,370 and we're neglecting Natalia. 224 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,860 The detective for the Westfield Police Department, 225 00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:49,370 within 10 minutes, 226 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:51,860 takes a look at the surroundings, 227 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:54,170 takes a look at the paperwork, 228 00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:56,550 listens to us speak for a couple minutes, 229 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,000 and he immediately realizes 230 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,750 he's not here to protect Natalia. 231 00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:06,580 He's here to protect my sons. 232 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:09,170 He knows instantly they're in grave danger. 233 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,000 Detective Klaus, 234 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,650 he conducts an investigation, he comes back and visits us. 235 00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:16,790 He's got a picture of Natalia 236 00:14:16,990 --> 00:14:20,860 from when she was naturalized here as a US citizen in 2008, 237 00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:23,310 when she first got here from the Ukraine. 238 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:26,580 He's got her naturalization, uh, information, 239 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:28,750 basic vital statistics, stuff like that. 240 00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:32,210 Natalia admitted to Detective Klaus 241 00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:34,310 that she was told 242 00:14:34,510 --> 00:14:37,170 her new birthday at the orphanage in Ukraine, 243 00:14:38,580 --> 00:14:41,750 that new birthday being 2003. 244 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:43,790 Another thing, 245 00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:46,580 Detective Klaus showed her a picture of herself 246 00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:48,170 from when she entered the country, 247 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:52,340 but she did not recognize herself in the picture. 248 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:55,070 He's not 100% convinced 249 00:14:55,270 --> 00:14:56,930 the girl in the picture is even her. 250 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:58,480 Another interesting thing 251 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,000 he mentions to us is her height. 252 00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:03,960 Four years ago, when she was naturalized, 253 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,380 she hasn't grown a centimeter. 254 00:15:07,580 --> 00:15:09,900 I don't care what kind of dwarfism you have, 255 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:12,960 if you're a six-year-old, you still grow. 256 00:15:14,270 --> 00:15:16,100 He informs us he believes 257 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:18,550 that her Ukrainian birth certificate is all bogus. 258 00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:24,000 Here's this business card to an attorney. 259 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,000 You need to go to them immediately. 260 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,650 You need to correct her age. 261 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,580 What are you talking about? 262 00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:33,960 Correct her age. That's... 263 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,900 You can't just take an eraser to her birth certificate. 264 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:38,210 I'd never heard of such a thing. 265 00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:40,960 I never... It never even crossed my mind. 266 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,480 I just thought we have an adult 267 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,170 who's masquerading it as an eight-year-old, 268 00:15:44,370 --> 00:15:45,930 and that's what it is. 269 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,900 So, he explains to me, 270 00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:52,000 foreign-born children often have inaccurate birth records, 271 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:53,690 and sometimes it needs to be corrected. 272 00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:54,960 This is our 273 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,270 legal recommendation from the police department. 274 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,760 We have it in writing from them. 275 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,480 So, the only way to protect the entire family, 276 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,270 I have to prove she's an adult 277 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,580 and that she definitely has 278 00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:11,030 a fake Ukrainian birth certificate. 279 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,000 Kristine and I, 280 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,790 again, we reached out to the adoption agency. 281 00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:19,690 When we asked them, "Can you help give us contact information 282 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:20,690 for her old family? 283 00:16:20,890 --> 00:16:22,650 We have got to find out what's going on here," 284 00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:25,380 they said, "No, we can't." 285 00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:28,860 The answer is always, "It is a closed adoption. 286 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:30,580 The other family does not want 287 00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:33,170 to surrender any information to you." 288 00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:36,690 It is not until 289 00:16:36,890 --> 00:16:39,380 I got a phone call from the secretary of the adoption agency 290 00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:41,380 a little bit later that day, 291 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:45,550 and she said, "I can't tell you where she's from, 292 00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:47,750 but check her luggage closer. 293 00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:52,030 Really inspect those backpacks." 294 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,100 So I go upstairs in the house, 295 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:57,170 get the backpacks out, start rummaging through it. 296 00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:02,170 There was a little ID tag inside of her bag 297 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,170 when we adopted her 298 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:06,370 that had the original family's information on it. 299 00:17:07,790 --> 00:17:08,860 What are their names? 300 00:17:10,270 --> 00:17:11,240 Gary and Diane Ciccone. 301 00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:24,170 We know, according to records that 302 00:17:24,370 --> 00:17:29,580 Natalia starts her early life in an orphanage in Ukraine. 303 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:32,170 But all the conflicts in this case, 304 00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:34,580 boil down to Natalia's age. 305 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:37,170 Is she a child or is she an adult? 306 00:17:37,370 --> 00:17:40,270 In 2020, a Ukrainian investigator 307 00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:43,070 went to track down Natalia's biological mother, 308 00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:44,380 Anna Gava, 309 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:47,240 and found Anna Gava's sister, Tatyana. 310 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,070 - Hello. 311 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,900 - Anna. 312 00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:05,170 Anna. 313 00:19:08,170 --> 00:19:10,170 This woman, Anna Gava, 314 00:19:10,370 --> 00:19:13,650 who is supposedly Natalia's biological mother, 315 00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:17,000 just said she's been going through this saga 316 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,650 for 17 years. 317 00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:21,550 Well, she said that in 2020. 318 00:19:22,170 --> 00:19:23,100 Do the math. 319 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:24,690 That means 320 00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:28,070 Natalia may really have been born in 2003, 321 00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:29,930 which is what she has said all along. 322 00:19:30,370 --> 00:19:31,930 And in 2008, 323 00:19:32,130 --> 00:19:33,480 Gary and Diane Ciccone, 324 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,240 from New Hampshire adopted Natalia. 325 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,480 By 2009, 326 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,900 it's possible that they found her behavior 327 00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:42,650 to be too hard to manage. 328 00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:46,170 I don't know, but to Ciccones, it's clear 329 00:19:46,370 --> 00:19:48,070 they wanted to unload her. 330 00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:49,790 Closed adoption giving virtually 331 00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:51,170 no information about her. 332 00:19:51,370 --> 00:19:52,860 They made a mistake though. 333 00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:55,000 They left their identifying information 334 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,760 on one of the luggage tags. 335 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,550 So, the Barnett's were able to track them down. 336 00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:31,760 My name is Judith Irving, 337 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,580 and I'm from a little town in Indiana. 338 00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:36,070 And, uh... 339 00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:37,480 I— I don't know what else to say. 340 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:38,930 Okay, can we start over? 341 00:20:39,130 --> 00:20:40,340 I'm so sorry. 342 00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:42,480 Oh, Natalia. 343 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,340 The first time I heard about Natalia, 344 00:20:44,540 --> 00:20:46,930 um, I actually received an email 345 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:48,550 from Little People of America. 346 00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:53,380 Little People of America is an organization 347 00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:56,170 where people with dwarfism can meet 348 00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:58,170 and come together once a year. 349 00:20:58,370 --> 00:21:00,000 And we're there for each other, 350 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,650 we help support each other, we're friends with each other. 351 00:21:02,850 --> 00:21:04,450 It's often where we meet our husbands, 352 00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:06,480 or wives, or our best friend. 353 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,650 Little people of America told me that the Ciccones had adopted a little girl. 354 00:21:09,850 --> 00:21:11,480 She has diastrophic dwarfism 355 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,100 and they're trying to find a home for her. 356 00:21:15,370 --> 00:21:17,070 When I saw her picture, it was— 357 00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:19,790 I instantly fell in love. I was like, 358 00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:22,550 "Yeah, this little girl, Natalia, 359 00:21:22,750 --> 00:21:25,550 she's meant to... She's meant to be my daughter." 360 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,340 I— I heard that she loved to dance and sing 361 00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:30,860 and be creative, and I was like... 362 00:21:31,060 --> 00:21:33,240 You know, she's just meant to be with me. 363 00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:37,580 Dyan and her husband said that, 364 00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:39,960 "Pay the legal fees and you can adopt 365 00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:41,650 this little girl." 366 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:42,860 If I remember right, 367 00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:44,340 she told me that 368 00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:46,070 adoption costs from Ukraine 369 00:21:46,270 --> 00:21:48,070 were around $25,000. 370 00:21:48,270 --> 00:21:50,380 And I find it kinda crazy 371 00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:52,450 that you would adopt a child 372 00:21:52,650 --> 00:21:55,930 and spend $25,000 and only spend a year with that child? 373 00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:58,930 So, I— I find it odd. 374 00:21:59,130 --> 00:22:01,960 I don't know if there was a financial scam or not. 375 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:06,070 My husband decided that 376 00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:08,580 I don't think we can do this financially. 377 00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:10,760 And I feel like if you're going to adopt, 378 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,440 both parents have to be totally into it. 379 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,860 But it broke my heart. 380 00:22:17,060 --> 00:22:20,820 So... Sorry. It just, uh... 381 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:24,070 When I wasn't able to adopt her, 382 00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:26,100 I just wanted her to be happy. 383 00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:27,930 And then when I found out 384 00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:29,070 what happened to her, 385 00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:31,510 I was like, "She wasn't happy." 386 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,270 And that was what broke my heart the most 387 00:22:35,470 --> 00:22:37,340 is that she wasn't happy. 388 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,000 In my heart, Natalia is the daughter I never had. 389 00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:47,930 Once we— we told them that we couldn't adopt Natalia, 390 00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:51,100 they moved on really quickly to the next couple. 391 00:23:04,750 --> 00:23:06,270 My name is Robyn Farris 392 00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:09,720 and this is my husband, Dwayne Farris. 393 00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:15,650 Back in 2009, we received an email 394 00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:17,450 from the Little People of America 395 00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:19,930 asking us if we might be interested 396 00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:24,100 in a possible adoption of a little girl named Natalia. 397 00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:27,070 And she hooked us up 398 00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:30,580 with the, um, adoptive mom, Dyan Ciccone. 399 00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:33,170 She had asked us if we would cover 400 00:23:33,370 --> 00:23:35,340 her previous medical expenses. 401 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,580 So right then and there, we started to get concerned. 402 00:23:39,780 --> 00:23:42,380 We thought it was some kind of weird scam 403 00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:43,930 where, you know, she kinda came across 404 00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:48,170 as a used car salesman of sorts trying to "sell" Natalia to us. 405 00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:52,000 So we said, "Heck, no, we're not gonna do that. 406 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,340 We're not gonna pay for anything that occurred in the past." 407 00:23:55,540 --> 00:23:58,270 And I think she harped on it a little bit. 408 00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:01,480 But then, eventually, she gave that up. 409 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,580 Another red flag that we were concerned about 410 00:24:03,780 --> 00:24:07,000 is why Dyan adopted her 411 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,240 and so quickly wanted to basically get rid of her. 412 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,650 We were concerned about her mental health 413 00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:19,100 coming from an orphanage in Ukraine. 414 00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:22,170 So we did ask her if we could 415 00:24:22,370 --> 00:24:24,650 please have Natalia evaluated, 416 00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:27,380 um, for a psychological evaluation 417 00:24:27,580 --> 00:24:29,580 to see where she stood on that. 418 00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:32,000 And, um, Miss Dyan said no. 419 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,930 Why would someone, if they didn't have anything to hide, 420 00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:37,170 why would they 421 00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:39,760 refuse the psychological evaluation? 422 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,550 Yeah, definitely shady, weird. 423 00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:46,580 - Um, definitely red flags. - Mmm-hmm. 424 00:24:46,780 --> 00:24:47,760 But I was still interested. 425 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,240 - I still wanted to pursue. - Hmm. 426 00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:54,170 So we're driving to this lake house in New Hampshire, 427 00:24:54,370 --> 00:24:56,760 where we were meeting Dyan and Natalia. 428 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,960 And it reminded me of Camp Crystal Lake. 429 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,550 It was kinda spooky. 430 00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:07,690 He had some concerns because the driveway 431 00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:09,790 was super steep and it was gravel. 432 00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:14,170 And us, you know, having physical disabilities just like Natalia, 433 00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:15,690 we were wondering, "Wow. 434 00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:18,690 How does she get up and down the gravel driveway?" 435 00:25:18,890 --> 00:25:21,550 'Cause when we first saw Natalia, 436 00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:23,170 she didn't have shoes at all. 437 00:25:23,370 --> 00:25:26,000 She has these slippery braces on her feet. 438 00:25:28,370 --> 00:25:30,000 And if you're stepping on pebbles, 439 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,900 it could definitely hurt your feet. 440 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:33,760 So we were just really surprised 441 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,580 she didn't have any shoes because you could 442 00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:40,170 fall down the driveway easily without the proper footing. 443 00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:46,580 But we thought that she was really adorable. 444 00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:48,340 She was about to turn six years old 445 00:25:48,540 --> 00:25:51,060 and she definitely looked her stated age. 446 00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:54,690 But we really had a feeling that 447 00:25:54,890 --> 00:25:56,930 there was something bad going on. 448 00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:07,750 We're both Christians and everybody, in our opinion, 449 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,860 has God given natural gifts 450 00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:13,690 and one of his gifts is the gift of discernment. 451 00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:16,480 You know, to the regular, um, average world, 452 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,270 it would just be more of a sixth sense or an intuition. 453 00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:24,170 I have a really good lie detector... I guess. 454 00:26:24,370 --> 00:26:27,170 But Dyan and Natalia, 455 00:26:27,370 --> 00:26:30,650 I knew that they were lying. 456 00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:33,070 - She was withdrawn and quiet. - Mmm-hmm. 457 00:26:33,270 --> 00:26:35,170 And didn't engage. 458 00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:37,440 Yeah, she would, like, look up first 459 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,340 to make sure her answers were appropriate 460 00:26:42,170 --> 00:26:44,270 - for Dyan. - And then you asked her 461 00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:46,860 what the Ukrainian orphanage was like. 462 00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:49,380 - Oh, yeah, yeah. - And she 463 00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:52,760 gave an uncoached answer, it was obvious. 464 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,930 - Yeah, she said, "It sucked." - She said, "It sucked." 465 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:57,070 And then Dyan interrupted her 466 00:26:57,270 --> 00:26:59,000 and seemed surprised that she said that 467 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,380 and said, "Oh, no, it wasn't that bad. You were fine." 468 00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:06,270 It was almost like Dyan had to give her approval 469 00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:08,170 - For her to... Yeah. - ... to come out. 470 00:27:08,370 --> 00:27:10,480 And then as soon as she said what she was coached to say, 471 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,550 she went back in. 472 00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:15,170 I've never seen another person do that. 473 00:27:15,370 --> 00:27:16,580 - Even in movies. - Yeah. 474 00:27:16,780 --> 00:27:18,340 Even in The Exorcist. 475 00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:21,100 It scared the out of me. 476 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,650 I can feel evil when I come into her room. 477 00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:31,580 I couldn't really put my finger on whether 478 00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:34,270 it was the situation that was evil 479 00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:36,690 or Natalia, 480 00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:39,070 there was something wrong with her. 481 00:27:39,270 --> 00:27:41,340 And I think that's the first time 482 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:45,170 I've ever completely trusted that intuition. 483 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,860 Right then is when I made the decision 484 00:28:04,750 --> 00:28:06,480 that we— this was not gonna happen. 485 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,930 As— as hard as it was to make that decision 486 00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:11,480 'cause I knew how it was going to affect you... 487 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,170 And when I told you, I was like, there's... 488 00:28:13,370 --> 00:28:15,170 I can't put my finger on it 489 00:28:15,370 --> 00:28:16,760 but there's something wrong. 490 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,690 When you called Dyan to tell her we weren't coming back, 491 00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:20,750 then... 492 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,270 the story just got crazier. 493 00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:24,860 'Cause she went 494 00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:28,000 ballistic on the phone. 495 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,340 She was furious. 496 00:28:30,540 --> 00:28:32,930 I could hear her through the phone yelling. 497 00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:36,000 - And so I was like, "Okay." - Yeah. 498 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,580 We need to go, like, there was no telling what she was gonna do. 499 00:28:38,780 --> 00:28:40,650 I mean, she went nuts. 500 00:28:49,550 --> 00:28:51,340 Kristine Barnett 501 00:28:51,540 --> 00:28:53,790 tried to contact me on Facebook 502 00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:56,690 not long after they adopted Natalia. 503 00:28:56,890 --> 00:28:59,200 And I wouldn't— wouldn't talk to her. 504 00:29:00,550 --> 00:29:02,450 And I knew that things were not right. 505 00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:04,790 I don't know if she's trying to get me on her side 506 00:29:04,990 --> 00:29:08,030 or— or what she's trying to do. I don't— I don't know. 507 00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:10,270 But it's... 508 00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:13,480 I'm— I'm not going to entertain 509 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,240 even saying hello to her. 510 00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:20,690 The Barnetts claim that Natalia had threatened them. 511 00:29:20,890 --> 00:29:22,900 So what if— even if she did threaten you? 512 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:23,900 You're the parent. 513 00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:25,960 I've— I'm a teacher. I have 600 students. 514 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,340 Some of those are from really rough families. 515 00:29:28,540 --> 00:29:30,580 You know, and I've been told, 516 00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:31,960 "I'm gonna cut you up." 517 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,140 I've been told, "I'm gonna drink your blood." 518 00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:37,550 Uh, I've been told all kinds of weird stuff. 519 00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:42,200 But I'm not truly scared that that's gonna happen. 520 00:29:42,890 --> 00:29:44,690 That child needs help. 521 00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:46,690 So you get that child help. 522 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:51,450 So yeah, I find actually being scared of a child, um, 523 00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:54,140 when you're a full-size grown adult, 524 00:29:54,340 --> 00:29:55,720 a little ridiculous. 525 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,480 So I started posting on an adoption message board 526 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,240 asking about 527 00:30:03,890 --> 00:30:06,790 if anybody had any experience of a Natalia. 528 00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:09,140 What was it, like, a year later, 529 00:30:09,340 --> 00:30:12,450 that Michael Barnett emailed me out of the blue 530 00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:17,030 and said, "I think we adopted the little girl you were talking about." 531 00:30:17,230 --> 00:30:19,960 And he started to... Said her name, Natalia, 532 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,030 - some other things. I was like, "Yep, that's her." - Yeah. 533 00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:25,790 Kristine, his wife, wanted to talk to you. 534 00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:28,790 Kristine and I kept in touch over Facebook Messenger 535 00:30:28,990 --> 00:30:29,960 for several years. 536 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,510 It did seem like a lot of shady stuff going on. 537 00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:36,720 Michael and Kristine Barnett, I mean, 538 00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:38,960 they lied a lot. 539 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,060 They will do anything to get what they want. 540 00:30:42,270 --> 00:30:44,510 They lie about Natalia being violent. 541 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:48,170 You just don't know the true Barnetts. 542 00:30:48,370 --> 00:30:51,030 When Kristine started telling us all these crazy stories, 543 00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:53,200 we thought, "Wait a minute." 544 00:30:54,170 --> 00:30:56,450 I mean, she's tiny. 545 00:30:56,650 --> 00:30:59,060 - Yeah. - These stories don't make sense. 546 00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:02,580 So we started figuring it out that 547 00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:05,550 everything Kristine told us wasn't the truth. 548 00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:08,960 Kristine was using me and Dwayne 549 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,450 because if she could get us on her side 550 00:31:12,650 --> 00:31:16,030 believing, you know, that Natalia had issues, 551 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:19,440 then she would feel justified in maybe getting rid of her. 552 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,030 Michael and Kristine Barnett 553 00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:26,690 not only lied to get her 554 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:30,440 into their family, but they also lied to get rid of her. 555 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,070 If they wanted to claim she's older than what she is, 556 00:31:36,270 --> 00:31:38,140 I mean, I don't know where they came up with that. 557 00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:39,380 That's just crazy. 558 00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:41,130 Like, who thinks of that? 559 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,450 Detective Clouse had told me, 560 00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:46,140 "You need to correct her age. 561 00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:49,860 This is our legal recommendation from the police department." 562 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,790 I am attaching a picture presumably 563 00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:19,340 taken at entry into United States. 564 00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:39,270 A home study report was prepared 565 00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:41,900 about the Barnetts, early 2010, 566 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:44,070 by a licensed social worker. 567 00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:45,960 One section that I found very troubling, 568 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,450 and it's the background information. 569 00:32:48,650 --> 00:32:51,790 The worker asked Michael and Kristine 570 00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:54,900 if they had ever had any domestic violence 571 00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,440 or disturbances at home and they both said no. 572 00:32:58,060 --> 00:33:00,550 The state took their word for it. 573 00:33:00,750 --> 00:33:03,900 Th—they relied on the self-reporting. 574 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,170 They should have gone to the local police to see if their names 575 00:33:06,370 --> 00:33:08,550 ever appeared because they would have found 576 00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:09,620 domestic violence 577 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,860 in 2003, 578 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,130 years before this home study evaluation. 579 00:33:18,370 --> 00:33:19,550 They're fighting. 580 00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:21,550 Michael's got Kristine in a headlock. 581 00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:24,960 And then he's pushed her. 582 00:33:28,550 --> 00:33:30,960 These are situations that are pretty serious. 583 00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:34,580 Scary, you know, to think of what could have been 584 00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:37,240 and what all the evil, dark secrets 585 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,750 are that we don't even know that her coming to light. 586 00:33:42,370 --> 00:33:45,480 It really doesn't shock me that Michael and Kristine have 587 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,960 kept some of these family secrets secret. 588 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,550 This is not the public persona they want to have. 589 00:33:55,170 --> 00:33:56,690 Every now and then, 590 00:33:56,890 --> 00:33:59,580 Michael and Kristine would be in the front yard arguing 591 00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:00,900 or fighting, 592 00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:02,900 or... There was no— I never saw anything physical. 593 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:04,960 It was just the yelling and the screaming. 594 00:34:06,790 --> 00:34:08,140 I felt sorry for Michael 595 00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:11,170 because she was degrading him 596 00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:13,270 and calling him a loser and a jerk. 597 00:34:13,470 --> 00:34:15,960 And I just was like, "God, that poor guy." 598 00:34:19,890 --> 00:34:22,480 I've been fooled by thinking that they were the perfect family, 599 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,620 because I don't think they were the perfect family. 600 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,900 There were a number of allegations 601 00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:07,140 that Michael and Kristine made about Natalia 602 00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:09,690 acting out in a violent way. 603 00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:12,380 Most of them happened within the home, 604 00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:15,140 but the bottom line is every incident 605 00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:17,030 was told from the Barnetts' perspective. 606 00:35:17,230 --> 00:35:20,380 But the last one was different. 607 00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:24,030 The Traders Point Creamery incident had witnesses. 608 00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:26,140 I'm Chris. 609 00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:27,930 I worked at Traders Point Creamery 610 00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:32,650 as a herdsman from 2012 to 2015. 611 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,650 Uh, so I had gotten a call 612 00:35:37,850 --> 00:35:41,650 that there was some crisis on the electric fence. 613 00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:43,790 Officers were called and that we needed 614 00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:47,550 to take them down to where, uh, the individual was. 615 00:35:50,130 --> 00:35:51,690 So I was under the impression that 616 00:35:51,890 --> 00:35:54,030 when we got down there, that there was going to be 617 00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:56,070 uh, a little person who was, 618 00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:58,380 um, distressed, um, 619 00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:01,900 very emotional. When we get down there, um, 620 00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,380 the caretaker seemed to be the one 621 00:36:04,580 --> 00:36:06,650 who was the emotional one of the two. 622 00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:10,690 And the little person seemed to be more calm 623 00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:13,030 and rational about the whole situation. 624 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,240 There was no mention of, uh, the caretaker 625 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,310 being at risk or anything like that. 626 00:36:20,340 --> 00:36:21,900 Natalia had been trying to pull Kristine 627 00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:23,270 into the electric fence. 628 00:36:23,470 --> 00:36:25,030 She'd been screaming out loud, 629 00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:26,690 bitch, I'm gonna kill you. 630 00:36:26,890 --> 00:36:29,100 I am going to kill you, you bitch. You're gonna die." 631 00:36:32,370 --> 00:36:33,310 So, uh, 632 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,030 I was there with, uh, the officer. 633 00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:38,480 I don't remember any of that being said. 634 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,140 I don't remember there being any threats 635 00:36:41,340 --> 00:36:43,690 about being, "I'm going to kill you," 636 00:36:43,890 --> 00:36:45,170 or anything like that. 637 00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:48,580 I just felt like the situation had kinda been overblown 638 00:36:48,780 --> 00:36:50,900 and it was not really that big of a deal. 639 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:52,900 Like, I have a fairly good memory 640 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:56,170 and I am positive I would remember that. 641 00:37:00,130 --> 00:37:02,380 The biggest thing I remember is thinking that 642 00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:05,900 if I had to deal with the adult caretaker, 643 00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,930 that, uh, I would be really frustrated, 644 00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:11,030 uh, just because it felt like 645 00:37:11,230 --> 00:37:13,930 she seemed to be making the situation worse. 646 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:16,930 My name's Mark Hostetler 647 00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:20,140 and at Traders Point, I was the farm manager. 648 00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:22,760 I got a phone call from one of my employees 649 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,380 saying, "Hey, we've got an issue. 650 00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:27,000 There's somebody on the walking trail. They're having a crisis. 651 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,690 What should we do? Can you turn the fence off?" 652 00:37:29,890 --> 00:37:32,140 Or is it dangerous, was also the question. 653 00:37:32,340 --> 00:37:34,580 And both the answers I should say were, uh, 654 00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:36,240 "No, it's— it's not dangerous." 655 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,140 And also, "No, I can't turn it off 'cause it's already off, I think." 656 00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:40,900 That section of fence isn't even on today 657 00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:43,170 because the cows are in a different part of the— the farm. 658 00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:46,580 And so my response was maybe a little callous. 659 00:37:46,780 --> 00:37:49,750 But mostly because the threat was so hollow. 660 00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:54,170 I can't imagine 661 00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:56,200 taking a child's threats, 662 00:37:57,130 --> 00:37:59,270 like, so seriously. 663 00:37:59,470 --> 00:38:02,310 Being truly scared. Now, you could take their threats serious, 664 00:38:02,890 --> 00:38:04,690 but we're not even super strong. 665 00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:06,270 We're diastrophics. 666 00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:07,380 We have joint problems. 667 00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:09,650 We have all kinds of issues that would make it 668 00:38:09,850 --> 00:38:12,790 difficult for us to truly overcome someone. 669 00:38:12,990 --> 00:38:16,070 We don't have the capability of truly hurting an adult. 670 00:38:16,270 --> 00:38:19,000 You know, unless, you know, there was firearms involved. 671 00:38:21,370 --> 00:38:22,960 But someone like me, 672 00:38:23,790 --> 00:38:25,270 I couldn't damage an adult. 673 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:26,650 They could just hold me off. 674 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,690 If Michael's version of what happened 675 00:38:33,890 --> 00:38:36,650 at Traders Point Creamery is not true, 676 00:38:37,580 --> 00:38:40,270 that Natalia really did not try to push her 677 00:38:40,470 --> 00:38:42,270 into an electric fence and "kill her," 678 00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:45,140 then it casts doubt on all the other allegations 679 00:38:45,340 --> 00:38:47,380 of Natalia's acting out 680 00:38:47,580 --> 00:38:50,580 that Michael and Kristine have reported. 681 00:38:50,780 --> 00:38:53,140 I don't know though that anyone can get to the truth here 682 00:38:53,340 --> 00:38:55,480 because there are so many stories 683 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,960 from everybody. 684 00:38:59,270 --> 00:39:00,170 For example, 685 00:39:00,370 --> 00:39:02,030 Michael's version of what happened here 686 00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:04,340 is not necessarily reliable. 687 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,270 At the Traders Point incident, how did the police react? 688 00:39:11,470 --> 00:39:12,170 I don't know. 689 00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:14,860 My— My sons and I were out in the forest. 690 00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:18,140 We... When we saw the police lights had arrived, 691 00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:20,380 we still had a good mile, mile and a half 692 00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:22,380 of running through a forest 693 00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:25,030 to get back on the path to get back up there. 694 00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:28,760 So by the time all four of us get all the way back up there, 695 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,480 Natalia's already gone. 696 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,900 The officer with her is already gone. 697 00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:35,550 I don't speak to the officers, I speak to my wife. 698 00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:39,480 We keep going, we keep going. 699 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,550 We're about 40, 50 yards down, I start hearing screaming. 700 00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:46,790 I turn to look. 701 00:39:46,990 --> 00:39:50,930 Natalia and Kristine are in a physical altercation. 702 00:39:51,130 --> 00:39:54,030 It looks like Natalia's trying to pull Kristine. 703 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,380 Look, I don't know what the truth is, 704 00:40:00,580 --> 00:40:03,380 but this raises a question in my mind 705 00:40:03,580 --> 00:40:06,270 of whether or not Michael and Kristine 706 00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:07,860 kinda orchestrated 707 00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:11,070 the Traders Point Creamery incident. 708 00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:14,270 They wanted an outside incident 709 00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:17,030 where there would be you know, some 710 00:40:17,230 --> 00:40:19,240 potential witnesses maybe, 711 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,170 uh, and she would be taken away 712 00:40:22,370 --> 00:40:23,650 for good this time. 713 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,550 Okay. 714 00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:54,030 - Yes. - Okay. 715 00:40:58,370 --> 00:40:59,270 Yes. 716 00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:09,650 Mmm-hmm. 717 00:41:57,370 --> 00:41:58,310 Mmm-hmm. 718 00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:06,480 The closer you look 719 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,240 into this case and dig, 720 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,100 the harder it is to know where the truth lies. 721 00:42:14,270 --> 00:42:15,170 Maybe there's more than one villain in this story.